Pro-Filer 195cc flow on 4.060 bore.

Cylinder Head and Manifold Discussion

Re: Pro-Filer 195cc flow on 4.060 bore.

Postby mebe007 » Mon May 21, 2012 4:47 am

well today started off great. got all my welds grinded down and the whole floor self etched then seam sealed. ruberized undercoated the underside and painted the topside. looks great. then i filled up all my fluids, primed the oil system and lit off the motor. all was well and about a minute in it started making a loud pop noise so i shut it down. pulled the valves covers and it broke 5 rocker studs, broke 3 pushrods, and bent the other 13 also chewed up some rockers. its wierd because it was running rather well i thought for nothing being adjusted yet. i checked the dist and it was a little loose. what could have caused this? i need to pull the intake so i can get a broken pushrod out of the lifter valley. any input would be great.

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Re: Pro-Filer 195cc flow on 4.060 bore.

Postby mebe007 » Tue May 22, 2012 4:13 am

ok so im hoping this is simplier than what i originally thought. upon further inspection of the rockers and the poly locks i notice there is a nice wear mark on the body of each rocker slot and a matching mark on the shoulder of each poly lock. this leads me to believe that the pushrods were too long and causing it to bind up. im guessing the lifters werent all the way pumped up when i was adjusting and it masked the problem. on a good note my machinist/friend is covering the cost of the new studs, shorter push rods and intake gaskets. im hoping its this simple as it seems to make sense. if it was piston to valve clearance i would have thought you could here the valves smacking the pistons.
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Re: Pro-Filer 195cc flow on 4.060 bore.

Postby Chad Speier » Tue May 22, 2012 4:37 pm

mebe007 wrote:ok so im hoping this is simplier than what i originally thought. upon further inspection of the rockers and the poly locks i notice there is a nice wear mark on the body of each rocker slot and a matching mark on the shoulder of each poly lock. this leads me to believe that the pushrods were too long and causing it to bind up. im guessing the lifters werent all the way pumped up when i was adjusting and it masked the problem. on a good note my machinist/friend is covering the cost of the new studs, shorter push rods and intake gaskets. im hoping its this simple as it seems to make sense. if it was piston to valve clearance i would have thought you could here the valves smacking the pistons.



I think your correct. It sounds like the pushrod was too long and it jumped out of the cup.
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Re: Pro-Filer 195cc flow on 4.060 bore.

Postby mebe007 » Tue May 22, 2012 5:12 pm

Another quick question chad, as for the head specs the springs you set it up with are they ok with the additional lift 1.6 rockers as far as bind etc is concerned?
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Re: Pro-Filer 195cc flow on 4.060 bore.

Postby mebe007 » Tue May 22, 2012 5:14 pm

Also would you trust the rockers? All rollers are free and not mared. Just the bodys of 3 or so. Nothing a little deburing wouldnt solve but do you think they have integrity still?
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Re: Pro-Filer 195cc flow on 4.060 bore.

Postby Chad Speier » Wed May 23, 2012 7:22 am

The rockers probably were not hurt.

The springs were installed at 1.900.. They have 120 on the seat and 350 open..

The studs were USA, 190,000 PSI.
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Re: Pro-Filer 195cc flow on 4.060 bore.

Postby mebe007 » Wed May 23, 2012 8:22 am

Wow they took alot of force to break then. So tge 1.6 rockers are still within specs of springs with my cam?
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Re: Pro-Filer 195cc flow on 4.060 bore.

Postby Chad Speier » Wed May 23, 2012 8:28 am

mebe007 wrote:Wow they took alot of force to break then. So tge 1.6 rockers are still within specs of springs with my cam?



What are the specs of the cam?
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Re: Pro-Filer 195cc flow on 4.060 bore.

Postby mebe007 » Wed May 23, 2012 8:57 am

howards retro roller cam, specs: Advertised Duration: 286/294 Duration @ .050": 233/241 Valve Lift w/1.50 Rockers: .530/.545 Lobe Separation Angle: 112 Intake Centerline: 108 Valve Lash: Hyd./Hyd. 2400-6000. Lopey idle, hot street & bracket racing. 10.0:1-up CR advised
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Re: Pro-Filer 195cc flow on 4.060 bore.

Postby Chad Speier » Wed May 23, 2012 9:24 am

mebe007 wrote:howards retro roller cam, specs: Advertised Duration: 286/294 Duration @ .050": 233/241 Valve Lift w/1.50 Rockers: .530/.545 Lobe Separation Angle: 112 Intake Centerline: 108 Valve Lash: Hyd./Hyd. 2400-6000. Lopey idle, hot street & bracket racing. 10.0:1-up CR advised



With the 1.6 rockers you will have .565/.581 lift.

1.900 install
1.080 coil bind
________
.820 total
.075 to bind
.745 total


1.850 install
1.080 coil bind
_________
.770 total
.075 to bind
.695 total

1.800 install
1.080 coil bind
_________
.720 total
.075 to bind
.645 total
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Re: Pro-Filer 195cc flow on 4.060 bore.

Postby mebe007 » Wed May 23, 2012 9:31 am

Can you explain those #s im confused. Not my area of expertise
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Re: Pro-Filer 195cc flow on 4.060 bore.

Postby mebe007 » Wed May 23, 2012 10:02 am

Just want to say thanks again chad. Your always a great help
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Re: Pro-Filer 195cc flow on 4.060 bore.

Postby Orr89rocz » Tue May 29, 2012 12:35 pm

Those are just install heights and recommended max lifts for the springs based on .075" clearance from coil bind.

if your springs are 1.900" install height you have enough lift capacity to handle 0.745" lift.

If the springs are 120lb seat, 350 open (not sure if thats at full lift or at some other value, it could be 350 open at .745 lift or .600" lift) I say they are abit light for that cam. I'd feel abit more comfortable with 140-150lbs seat and abit more open pressure, 380-400lbs at your lift. With that spring install height you could shim the bottom up alot to get the seat pressures up. Could help against possible valve float. I've run 286 adv, 230 deg at .050 with .600 lift with 165lbs seat, 412 open. My friends car i tuned ran 280/230 .576 cam based on comp's XFI hyd roller lobes and it floated at 5700 rpm with 120lb seat, 320's open pressure. Just my thoughts
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Re: Pro-Filer 195cc flow on 4.060 bore.

Postby mebe007 » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:55 am

well long time no see folks. build has been dead in the water as it has been over 100degrees in my shop and after working in it all day i didnt feel like staying after to work on the car.

to answer the some peoples questions. the only part of the motor i did not do is the pushrods/valve train adjustment. My budd, well supposed buddy who is/was my machinist did that part when i was out of town. i screwed up and trusted him and now see where i am. learned my lesson. he said he was going to take care of me and replace my rocker studs and also the pushrods and new intake gaskets. well hes been dicking me around this whole time and now not answering my calls. guess the friendship is over huh. So anyways now i need to save up the money for new 7/16' studs, new 1206 gaskets, new header gaskets(pulled headers to make sure all exhaust valves were full seated and none stuck open in case of ptv clearance) and most likely new 1.5 ratio rockers. for some some reason i feel leary about the 1.6 ratio and figured i might just play the safe side and stay 1.5 and just keep the 1.6 on the shelf.


so here are some things i have found since this nice little break in the weather( hope it lasts) pulled the headers all intake valves appear to be fully seated, pulled the intake to get broken pushrods out, all intake valves appear to be fully seated. tapped a pushrod that wasnt broken as straight as possible with a hammer and took a measurement. guess what it came out to being.....................7.8", stock length. no wonder im having issues. according to howards cams website they suggest 2 of their pushrods for hydraulic roller cams using their kits, their performance series .060 wall thickness at 7.144" and their one piece swagged end .080" wall thickness at 7.150" now thats a big difference in length. now my heads (profilers) suggest +.100" longer pushrods which would still only put me at the 7.244" to 7.250". That means he put pushrods in my motor that were somewhere give or take around .5" too long. Simply crazy.

so now its time to get some money together and get this beast going.

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Re: Pro-Filer 195cc flow on 4.060 bore.

Postby 268M » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:00 pm

Just my $.02 on this topic. Since I see this sort of carnage drug into our shop on a regular basis caused by people "thinking they know" what they are doing, allow me to make a suggestion. DO NOT simply buy the suggested pushrod based on hear say. To many variables determine the correct pushrod length. Do it right and check the geometry with an adjustable pushrod. That way you are assured to get the exact length before spending anymore $$. 2nd suggestion, step up to the .080" wall tubing when you do purchase new pushrods. If you are not totally sure how to check for correct rocker geometry ask for help, sure a few members on this board can get you where you need to be rather quickly.
Mesik Motorsports - We don't drive round'n circles lookin' for the finish line
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